“Unfear” with Gaurav Bhatnagar and Mark Minukas

Have you ever jumped to a conclusion that was dead wrong? Or assumed that everyone else on your team was seeing the world in the same way as you, but then found out that they saw things very differently?

My guests Gaurav Bhatnagar and Mark Minukas are co-authors of Unfear: Transform Your Organization to Create Breakthrough Performance and Employee Well-Being. They  explain how the failure to separate what we’ve actually observed from what is merely our interpretation of the situation often gets us in trouble. They share how we can communicate in a way that recognizes that other people’s perceptions, assumptions and reality are different from our own.

Gaurav describes himself as a former “fear addict” who had to overturn his two-pronged paradigm that life is a competition and that you either succeed, or you are nothing.

He says that becoming aware of the story he told himself was the very first step he had to take in order to shed those limiting beliefs and undergo a total mindset transformation—and it is precisely this principle that he and Mark expound on in their book, Unfear.

Likewise, Mark grew up believing that you had to “check your emotions at the door”. He had to rewire his mind and realize that improving how you show up in the world depends on your ability to dig deep and get in touch with your authentic, emotional self.

“Separate what you observe from what you interpret,” Gaurav and Mark teach. This way, you can separate your subjectivity from the objective and be on the same page with the people you’re interacting or working with. Start by simply and literally noting what you observe, and from there you may begin to draw conclusions based on the facts.

If you find yourself having to navigate a fear-based organization, it may be worth it to hear what the resident “troublemaker” has to say—the staff member who isn’t afraid to speak their mind and challenge the restrictive status quo. They may just vocalize the same concerns that everyone else in the organization is too afraid to bring up.

These organizations—and, really, all organizations—can foster greater collaboration between team members when the leader improves their storytelling ability, as there is no better way to touch your team on the human, emotional level than by communicating via stories.

Amanda Setili (00:05):

We all want to do work that we love. And as leaders, entrepreneurs, and employees, wouldn’t it be great to create workplaces where work feels like play, where people are tuned in to the changes going on in the world, around them, where they’re constantly learning, starting new opportunities and taking action to go after them. I’m Amanda [inaudible]. And this is the fearless growth podcast where my guests and I will explore the mindsets and choices that lead you and your organization to outstanding performance. Welcome to the fearless growth podcast today. My guests are Guarav button [inaudible] and mark menuca co-authors of the book unfair. It’s a book about how to transform your organization to create breakthrough performance and employee wellbeing. Welcome to the show. Gorav and

Gaurav Bhatnager (00:56):

thank you for having us.

Amanda Setili (00:59):

So you all have written about a topic that is dear to my heart, how to dispel fear and become more productive and more of a learning organization. So I was so excited to read it. One of the things that I think is very interesting about this is that you bring up in the book is how the stories that we tell ourselves often get in the way of our being able to work effectively with others and our ability to really put on the, the learning mindset, as opposed to the fear mindset. And often these stories come from things that happened. You know, when we were kids, the relationship we had with our siblings, our birth order, how our parents treated us and things like that. And I was just wondering if those kinds of things ever come out during your workshops.

Gaurav Bhatnager (01:45):

So some say that they do Amanda. In fact, we, we encourage them to come out and often the way we do it is by role modeling and going first. And quite honestly, just, just being very honest. I have historically, you know, early in my career being a fear addict and my story coming out of India was that, you know, life is a competition it’s really hard. And my story around my fear of failure was you either succeed or you are nothing. And the way you succeed is by, by climbing over the other people. And given that story, I was displaying a lot of dysfunctional behaviors in my own life that were negatively impacting my relationships that was creating burnout in my life. And that was, that was also impacting my personal life and my married life quite dramatically. So, so, you know, we often will role models so we can draw it out from other people. And in actually the first step to transformation is the recognition and the awareness of the story. It’s interesting.

Mark Minukas (02:53):

I think we and myself included, you know, I was kind of taught to check your emotions at the door when you go to work. And that’s, you know, not a very pragmatic or effective way to be, you know we, we have all these life experiences and, you know, good experiences and bad experiences and you know, ways in which we’ve been conditioned to both see the world and enact in the world. And if you want to change how you show up in the world and be more effective, you often have to go deep and really understand why you’re feeling and perceiving the way things, the way that you are. So I think it does perhaps, you know, for some people certainly go back to, to childhood,

Amanda Setili (03:37):

Kind of bring up another question that I wanted to ask, which is a really important book point that you make in the book, which is you need to separate what you interpret from what you observed. And I think this is so powerful and it, and it kind of ties back to what you just said. You said you could use words like I observed blank. And from that I interpreted blank. I think that’s such a useful way to think about it because then you, you can say exactly what did I see here or read. Exactly. And then you can go into what I imagined and made up based on that. And that’s a way to bring out your emotions at the same time as being fact-based. This is something you teach people to do

Mark Minukas (04:26):

Very, very critical scale. I mean, it’s, it’s, you know, oftentimes we perceive the world and we, we immediately assume that that’s you know, one accurate and two, you know, true as if everyone else is seeing the world in the same way. And that actually creates a lot of, lot of friction and a lot of challenges in organizations you know, just to, you know, make assertions about the world that other people don’t share. And so one thing we teach people, and this is part of, you know, facing your fears is, you know, kind of stepping back and saying, look, you know how I’m seeing the world is one version of it. Let me clarify for people, you know, what some of the assumptions are and how I’m holding my own emotions and my own perceptions and inviting other people into a conversation. So just asserting, you know, I am angry, are you, you’ve done this to me is not an effective way to communicate. So separating your interpretation from what you’re seeing is, is really an important skill to create better conversations at work gore, have anything you want to have.

Gaurav Bhatnager (05:33):

And I think Amanda, to your question about, do you teach people? I think the one thing you have to teach people is often people say, I observed you are angry. Now you can’t observe anger. You can observe behaviors or mannerisms that lead to an interpretation of anger. So the real teaching is to help people understand the distinction between an observation and an Indiana and an interpretation, which people actually don’t really have. You know, even simple things like I love. And the example I’ll give is, Hey, tell me about this room. Is it a, what kind of room is it? And people will start getting into it’s big or it’s small. And that’s an interpretation. The observation is the exact dimensions of the room. And we often are not clean on that.

Amanda Setili (06:22):

Mark. I I’m really curious about the military, cause this seems like it would be a thing that would, I mean, one of many things in your book that would be really useful in the military and often the military is surprisingly ahead of corporate America and the corporate world in terms of this kind of thinking, do they teach things like this as well? I mean about the observation versus interpretation,

Mark Minukas (06:44):

You know, surprisingly, that’s not something I learned in the military. I think there is, there’s a lot of thought and training that gets put into being an effective leader in the military. So I think people are already attuned to basic principles like taking care of other people you know, showing up with a degree of humility you know, generally speaking, saying, you know, making it okay to say, you know, I don’t know, but let’s find out although that’s something I, I personally struggled with as a, as a leader in the military, but you’re just immersed in a culture that is very focused on training leaders and growing leaders. So I think that’s some of what we talk about in the book is certainly reflected in what I learned in the military, but not all. I think there’s, there’s certainly more that the military can do to improve, you know, emotional intelligence and just improve how leaders use language to create better trust and, you know, advance the conversations that people need to have in the world.

Amanda Setili (07:47):

I’m just always so impressed with people who come from a military background, especially people who went to one of the academies because they always just seem to be so centered. And it’s, it’s kind of the opposite in the way of the, of the I don’t know, the expression people use when they say, oh, this is a really military type culture. And what they mean by that is it’s very hierarchical, you know, do what do what you’re told command and control or something, but actually the military in some ways, espouses, many of the things that you just spoke about,

Mark Minukas (08:23):

I think it’s a bit of a paradox of sorts or maybe a dichotomy. I think there are certainly individuals in the military who can be very centered. And there is a general, you know climate of, you know, hierarchy and they both kind of work together. I mean, it doesn’t always mean that there’s dysfunction there, but I think like any organization, you know, first off the military is a, is a huge place. So there’s a lot of cultures and, you know, different different units or even sub units within a unit will have their own separate cultures. So I think you see, you know, a whole spectrum of, of effectiveness in the military, but I think there is, you know, this, yeah, this tension between training individuals to be quite centered and be able to face any challenger or pressure that that may be thrown at them. And there’s a, you know, a general culture of you know, top down hierarchy as well. And there can be friction there,

Amanda Setili (09:21):

You do your work. Well, those two things can coexist hierarchy where everybody knows. Yeah. There’s somebody in charge here who will tell us what the direction is, but also humility about, I don’t know how to do this, you know, I can set the vision, but I don’t know how to get there. You guys who are down at the lower levels of the organization are the ones who are really going to figure out how we’re going to do this. And I think that’s when it really works well. Yeah.

Mark Minukas (09:47):

Yeah, exactly. I think you need both. I think the fear-based hierarchical organizations have leaders who really want to control everything and don’t want to, you know, release the reins. They’re trying to you know, get the, the rest of the organization to serve them. I think when it works really well is when the hierarchy creates some structures and conditions that empower the rest of the organization. So it really just depends on how it’s done, right.

Amanda Setili (10:11):

Constraints can be freed. Absolutely. Another interesting concept within your book is something we all know to be true, which is that having the right answer in an engineering sensor, a logical sense is useless. If you can’t find buy-in. And one of the interesting sub-points to that, that you bring up is you should always enlist the troublemakers in your, in your projects because they’re the ones who are going to raise objections and say no, and be the naysayers, but they’re doing that because they care. And I think that’s a really interesting point. Do you have any good stories about troublemakers that you, that you enlisted and how that turned the situation around

Mark Minukas (10:55):

Is our resident troublemakers? So I’ll let him take this one.

Gaurav Bhatnager (11:00):

Ah, yeah. I, in fact my title should be chief troublemaker. No, you, there, there are some really good stories, but just before I get into the story, Amanda, Amanda, I think the other thing with troublemakers are also, they are really influential within the organization. So they create multiplier effects and there was one particular story which was which is which was there, where we were working in a, in a manufacturing site. And, you know, there was this gentleman who was close to retirement and was really, you know, the first time I saw him, he was sulking and he was really upset about being asked to be part of the part of the change effort. And he was, you know, and everyone would say, oh, you got him as one of your changes. And you’re in trouble, man. As it turned out, he was, he was, he was really, really, you know, deeply passionate about, about the work, but he felt that his voice was not being heard.

Gaurav Bhatnager (12:06):

And as we worked with him and he realized that his voice was, was going to be celebrated in a sensible way, because it’s not like everything he was saying was, was right. He suddenly started opening up so much so that, you know, he was saying to the headquarters to represent the site at one point and talk about what was going on, turned out when he was returning back to it, to home. He ended up being on a, on a flight, which was very close to the flight time that I was landing in at this, at this place. And I came out of my flight and I saw and was introduced to this, this person’s wife. And she came up to me and said, what have you done to my husband? He’s so positive now. And he’s, he’s, you know, he’s, he’s so excited about things. And it was, you know, that was deeply meaningful because not only was he actually living in and actually positively impacting the organization, there was something pretty special that happened in his personal life as well. And you know, I still stay in touch with the, with the gentleman because it says become a friendship of a lifetime.

Amanda Setili (13:18):

I think it’s so important to recognize the troublemakers because they’re often people who are really thinking deeply about the situation and people aren’t listening to them because people are, you know, in a fear-based organization just trying to, you know, protect themselves, get the numbers delivered. They don’t have time to think about things that deeply or to it. And you know, if the, if the boss says go, right, everybody just goes, okay, let’s go. Right. Even if, even if they see problems with it, they may be based on their fear mentality, be moving that direction. And the troublemaker is saying, but wait a second, going right. Has these risks, let’s make sure to address these risks. And it’s important to listen because the risks are real. Okay.

Mark Minukas (14:06):

It’s super important to listen. And, and, you know, part of the work that we do is we work with, you know, the formal leaders in the organization, but also these informal leaders, because both have to show up differently in order for this to work. So you can imagine in this situation, though, the leaders need to, you know, understand that they need to listen more effectively to people in these troublemakers and not just marginalize them because there is something valuable in here and they can’t be filtering this information out. And then the troublemakers have to learn how to show up and actually deliver the things that they care about, deliver those messages in a way that allows other people to hear. Hmm.

Gaurav Bhatnager (14:43):

Yeah. Then I think the other thing Amanda, is that when you’re working with fear, fear is really, really sticky. And the thing is that when, when people have experienced an event, which has led to led to people creating negative stories about fear, they are carried long after the event has happened. And you know, another place where we were working, there was a factory shutdown that happened five years before we had showed up. And it, 90% of the people who were working with us had not been there when the plant shut down and happened. And yet they still talked about how unfair the other side was when the plant shut down and happened. And in that situation, there was so much resistance because anything management said the employees would not buy into anything. The employee said the management would look at with suspicion based on that event that happened five years ago and 90% of them were not there.

Amanda Setili (15:43):

Yeah, it’s so interesting how these stories can just linger and linger and fester.

Mark Minukas (15:48):

And this gets back to that interpretation observation, you know, challenges, a lot of people based on their past experience, you know, start to interpret these events in a certain way, and is often a, you know, a negative story that they’re telling about, you know, various events. It could be, you know, the CEO says something like, Hey, we’re going to change directions or we’re going to do this. It’s a very innocuous comment. But based on the past experiences people have, they create this big, huge story about what’s actually going on, you know? And, and so helping people untangle, you know, what’s actually being said from the story that they have about it helps them, you know, reframe these stories and, and, you know, maybe get out of this negative loop that they’re in.

Amanda Setili (16:32):

Well, I think if you can get the leader to be telling the right stories, stories about progress, stories about where we want to go together, stories about customers being delighted with something that we did, it can be really powerful to help turn that around. Do you, do you find that most top leaders are natural storytellers or do you have to teach them? And if you teach them, how do you teach them? How do you get them comfortable with storytelling? And do you have any techniques for getting them to just do it more regularly?

Gaurav Bhatnager (17:05):

Fortunately, in my experience in mark, yours might be different. Amanda’s yours might be different, but I do not think business leaders are actually think storytelling is an important skill. I think most of us as human beings are storytellers by nature because that’s how we communicate things. But somehow in the workplace that disappears and it becomes PowerPoint presentations and bullet points. So a lot of our work when we are teaching people about storytelling is helping them understand first through examples, the power of storytelling, but then giving them a structure, which allows them to be storytelling in an authentic way. Because, because if it’s all positive, people are not going to buy it. If it’s all negative, it’s going to collapse people. But where is the middle ground of authenticity? In one of the big ideas we talk to our business leaders about is what is your cathedral story? You know, a brick layer is laying bricks, but if the brick layer thinks that all the he or she is doing is laying breaks, that person shows up with very different energy than a brick layer who thinks is that he or she is building a cathedral, right? And that is the core of it

Amanda Setili (18:25):

Wanted to go back. We’re going to come back to the storytelling issue, but there was one thing I want to make sure that we hit on Gorav you tell a really interesting story about yourself when you were at McKenzie spending inordinate energy, you said creating and projecting a manufacturer persona that didn’t align with my true self. And you said that you had, that you had to ask yourself whether you would try to fit in and survive at a company that didn’t value your contribution or step into your uniqueness. Can you tell us anything about that transformation, how that happened?

Gaurav Bhatnager (19:00):

I mean, this was, this was a point where, you know, here I was doing work, which is, you know, quite non numbers oriented. And I mean, I’m, I was working in a space where I was working with the mindsets of people and, you know, it’s, there’s no judgment on this, but McKinsey tends to be, you know, what is measured is what is rewarded and, and people just couldn’t figure out, you know, why did clients appreciate what I was doing so much or how to value it? And I was stuck in a fear-based pattern of, oh my God, if I leave McKinsey one, my message would not go out because of how would I go talk to people? And to, you know, as my mother told me at that point, she said, Hey God, if you have young children and what if you are not able to answer living. And so I had to do a lot of reflection about my own stories, about who I was believing into my potential, engaging in conversations with, with my wife to, to, to actually step out of my comfort zone and step into fear so that I could embrace the learning of living a comfortable, but stuck situation to find my true expression. And that was the foundation of co-creation partners. It was about if I want other people to be the way they, I want, I’m asking them to be, I need to step into that myself.

Amanda Setili (20:36):

So you actually left the firm at this transformation time.

Gaurav Bhatnager (20:40):

Yes, they did this part of this one. Yes. But again, not because there’s anything wrong with the firm,

Mark Minukas (20:47):

But I needed to

Amanda Setili (20:48):

Be honest with myself and you’re creating something amazing that you, that you get to, you get to create, you get to decide with mark what it is, what are we trying to do here? How are we going to do it? Just really fun. Absolutely. Mark, do you want to say anything about how you, and Gorav decided to work together and how this all came together into a cohesive co-creation partners?

Mark Minukas (21:12):

[Inaudible] I was still at the firm and he had recently left to start co-creation partners. And we actually found ourselves working at the same client. I was running a big lean transformation and gore was doing the mindset stuff. And I heard about these mindset workshops that were happening. And I was very skeptical at first. I was like, who is this guy who couldn’t hack it at the firm? You know, he’s coming in and doing these woo mindset workshops, and he’s going to mess up, you know, all the stuff that I’m doing with my, my lean transformation. So I joined some of the workshops, you know, primarily to just check in on this and see what was going on. And, you know, from that first workshop, I was like, wow, this is the missing link. You know, this is a missing piece to a lot of the work that I’ve been doing is I’ve always felt this, this gap, you know, would come back to clients six, 12 months later and see that a lot of the work that we had done just wasn’t sustained, you know, these brilliant ideas and brilliant plans and transformation efforts that seemed so promising, just, you know, the energy was kind of drained out and, you know, not as much was happening and you know, this, this deeper mindset work and really shifting how people themselves, you know, at the individual level show up was just so powerful.

Mark Minukas (22:26):

So when I left the firm a few years later garb and I had kept in touch and you know, we started collaborating on, on some, some work and it’s been a great collaboration ever since.

Amanda Setili (22:37):

Yeah, that’s interesting because I noticed that a lot of the techniques, ideas in your book are very aligned with, you know, total quality management and Deming and lean, and a lot of stuff that’s come before you’re standing on the shoulders of giants, but it’s sounds like you were already doing all of that stuff. And you saw that Guarav was doing something new, which was working on the mindsets of the individuals what’s inside. And that’s very interesting that that’s, that was sort of left out. Do you find that that’s often missing like that people have everything right, but they’re forgetting that one piece.

Mark Minukas (23:14):

I think it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s often missing. So a lot of the, the work you know, in quality management or lean management and agile and design thinking, it deals with, you know, the outer world. So what’s kind of happening in the organization. It could be, you know, the processes are there the information that people are using the tools and practices and routines, and that’s all great stuff. And the intention of all that is to create learning organizations, to get people, to see problems in new ways and to take creative actions that solve problems and create new outcomes and do it in a very collaborative way, but that’s still all happening. You know, it at the sort of organizational system level sort of in the outer world, but oftentimes the reasons why people don’t engage with those processes and those practice practices very easily is because of a lot of the, the internal fear that they have. And so if you don’t actually, you know, help people step into a learning mindset for themselves as individuals, it’s very, very difficult to create, you know, the, the system level change that you want to want to create. And so it’s, it’s kind of, it’s both hands. Yeah.

Gaurav Bhatnager (24:22):

And just, just, just to build on that, Amanda, I think what often people don’t realize is you know, how you see the world conditions, what actions you can take. So if you see the world in a certain way, you have you have one set of actions available to you. And when you see the world in a different way, it opens up new sets of actions and a lot of the lean work and the total quality work is about the actions that need to need to be different. The mindset work allows people to see that there’s a whole new set of actions that are available to them. And, you know, Marcus told me, told you about why he wanted to work with me. The reason why I wanted to work with mark was because I think I was doing a lot of really powerful being work, but unless the being is translated into the doing, you don’t still have impact. So mark brought two to, to co-creation this view, the strategic view, the system view, as well as the doing view of how do you translate shifted mindset into practical action. And I think that’s the distinctiveness of the work, which is it, it works at a both of where the being and doing level.

Amanda Setili (25:36):

If you all had to name one exercise or experience that you incorporate into your workshops that is most effective at shifting the mindset, shifting, helping people understand where they’re coming from and what their worldview view is and how that can change, what would it be? Can you tell us what, tell us a little bit about how, what happens in the workshop?

Gaurav Bhatnager (26:00):

We both times sure have our own favorite. So I’ll start, and then mark your jump in. So the one which I love doing in a workshop is I hold a blue colored pen up in my hand, and I say, I’m going to do a magic trick now. And you know, I first, what I do is I just opened my hand and I let the pen drop and I tell people there’s only one right answer. And what do you think the answer is? Why did the pen form? And most people would say, it’s gravity. And then what I do is I can nice and now the magic is going to happen. I go abracadabra, the da, whatever. And then I call onto the pen and the pen doesn’t fall. And I say, how come the pen is not falling? And they say, oh, you held onto it.

Gaurav Bhatnager (26:41):

But I said, but then I tell them what you said, answer is gravity and did gravity magically disappear. And that leads to a really interesting conversation because what it certainly helps people realize is that people don’t focus on the things that are in their control. And they often blame the circumstances or the situation for, for, for what is going on, which we call a victim mindset. And the big idea with this little exercise is to show that if you approach the situation with mastery, yes, gravity exists. And yet we have a choice in terms of how we show up in the situation. And that choice allows us to be effective. And just a simple little thing like that creates and makes the light bulb go off. And you can almost see people’s eyes light up say, oh my God, I didn’t realize how I was disempowering myself.

Amanda Setili (27:34):

Do you find that you need to change anything about how these people are being led before that, or maybe only be a week before, but you know, to have the li their leadership, except that they’re going to be coming up with new ideas, they’re going to be thinking that they’re more powerful than they thought they were and you better be ready for it.

Gaurav Bhatnager (27:54):

So we flip it around. What we do is we say the leaders need to work on their journey. The change agents need to work on their journey, and then they need to come together. And the idea is, you first need to reflect on yourself and then let’s then go and see the experience with new eyes when you work with leadership. So often it is, you know, and yes, the leader needs to come in and say the right words, but actually it’s in the self experience and then engaging differently that the magic happens. So we, again, that’s why our approach is called inside out. And it’s less about what leadership is allowing you to do. It’s about what are you allowing yourself to do? And let the leaders also go through the same experience and then bring them together to create something that they did not expect to come out in, in this mark,

Amanda Setili (28:45):

You have a different answer.

Mark Minukas (28:46):

Yeah. I love the one guard gave, but another, you know, favorite sort of inflection point in, in some of the workshops that we run is on interpretation and observation. We, we often do this exercise where you know, the two facilitators in the room, let’s say Garvin. And I, you know, play out this the scene where one of us gets frustrated and we’ll crumple up a piece of paper and throw it up, the other person storm out of the room. And then we asked the group afterwards, Hey, what did you observe there? And we have two columns on the flip chart, you know, one representing, not labeled yet, but one representing observations, one representing interpretations. And what a lot of people and doing of just about every single group is they, all they list are just interpretations. You are angry or upset. Garth was disrespectful.

Mark Minukas (29:34):

You know, all these things are just pure interpretations. And then we could ask them the question, well, what did you observe? What do you observe? And we help them realize that, you know, most of what they think they’re observing, they’re really interpreting. And the observation in that case was throwing a piece of paper at Cora, right? The interpretation was you are angry and Gora was being disrespectful. And so that’s just a, it’s a big insight that people have that they, you know, they come to understand that a lot of what they’re describing about the world is really they’re their own interpretation and they need to own those interpretations and share them with other people so they can create better conversations.

Amanda Setili (30:07):

It really does help the conversation when people separate those two things.

Mark Minukas (30:11):

Yeah. And it’s hard. It’s very hard.

Amanda Setili (30:13):

You have to keep reminding yourself. Well, it has been such a pleasure talking with both of you today, and I enjoyed reading your book. I think it’s a fabulous book. And I can you tell us how people can reach you, how, how they can engage with you.

Mark Minukas (30:29):

People can go to unfair book.com. If they want to learn more about the book, or they can go to co-creation partners.com that’s co-creation partners with no dashes, and they can get more information on our firm and they can get our email addresses and reach out and contact us

Gaurav Bhatnager (30:45):

If you want to. Pre-Order the book. Amazon has it. And if you are more of a local book chain person go to indy.com and they will be able to connect you to your local bookstore, our bookstore, to be able to get the book there.

Amanda Setili (30:57):

That is so nice that you gave a shout out to the independent bookstores. That’s fantastic. And I’m going to write a review on Amazon, and I hope that everyone who picks up your book does the same, because I’d love to have this, this thinking to get out into the world quickly.

Gaurav Bhatnager (31:12):

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thanks

Amanda Setili (31:14):

For being a guest. Bye-Bye.

Gaurav Bhatnager (31:16):

Bye. Bye.

Amanda Setili (31:19):

Thank you for listening to fearless growth. You can find out more about the show at tilly.com/podcast, and you can listen on apple podcasts and Spotify. If you like what you’ve heard, please take a moment to write a review and give us a star rating reviews matter so much in helping others find us. Thanks for your support.