Amanda Setili (00:05):
We all want to do work that we love. And as leaders, entrepreneurs, and employees, wouldn’t it be great to create workplaces where work feels like play, where people are tuned in to the changes going on in the world, around them, where they’re constantly learning spotting new opportunities and taking action to go after them. I’m Amanda [inaudible]. And this is the fearless growth podcast where my guests and I will explore the mindsets and choices that lead you and your organization to outstanding performance.
Today. My guest is ginger Bowman, a former SCAD professor winner of four Oscars and owner and founder of a commercial printing business that is now turning into a marketing powerhouse. Ginger has a fascinating background. And what I would like to start with ginger is first of all, thank you for joining us, but also the story of how you were had graduated with a bachelor’s in fine arts and found yourself waiting tables and what you did next.

Ginger Bowman (01:10):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. It’s really enjoyable to be here and talk today. Backtracking to where some of the careers started. I did graduate with a finance degree. I was a painting major and I was very poorly equipped to enter the working world. And when I got out there in the working world, I thought you can’t really do a whole lot with a painting degree. I was, I was very unprepared. So I found myself waiting tables. I was living in Los Angeles. My parents weren’t supporting me and I had bills to pay as expensive out there then, and now. And like I say, there’s nothing to motivate a young person than rolling silver at eight in the morning for the lunch shift. And I went to and I was searching, what do I want to do?

Ginger Bowman (01:56):
What do I want to do? What I want to do in my career? This is definitely not willing to do in my career. What do I want to do? And I stumbled on a magazine that was describing the behind the scenes makings of a feature film, really creative aspect, like, you know, making creatures and things like that. And I, I said, wow, that is so interesting. And I went to a movie, I was working at TGI Friday’s right where I had $2 tips for lunch, you know, and I went to a movie, it was one of the very early I’ll buy. The one that people recognize is Jurassic park. So we’ll, you know, I came out of it and I told the other waiter. I said, that’s what I want to do. And he looked at me and said, do you know how to do that? I said, not a clue, not a clue, but I’m going to find out

Amanda Setili How did you find out?

Ginger Bowman (02:47):
Well, I, IReally honestly didn’t have a clue. So how I was going to get from a to Z. I mean, there it is, you know, working in the movies, you know, and there’s me waiting tables with no skills that, you know, specific skills on that. I mean, I was an artist that was retail, you know, I believe I was talented. So what I did is well I ended up waiting. I ended up being a cocktail waitress at a very fancy Hollywood Beverly Hills restaurant and a guy came in there and I was talking with him and he said, you know, you seem like you have something more than you might want to be doing with yourself. And I said, well, as a matter of fact, you know, and I took, there were, there were really weren’t, there weren’t university courses for what I wanted to do, but there were some, all a cart classes. So I was taking a class. So at that time I would stay up till three in the morning, training myself, I would go to work during the day cocktail witnessing. The gentleman that I met that, that I mentioned said, well, I know a company that might need an intern. And I started interning there, oh, I would intern during the day. Then I would go to cocktail waitress until, you know, whatever 11. And then I would come home and study and train myself until three in the morning.

Ginger Bowman (04:02):
And how many years or months did it take to get an actual job? Well, the,
Ginger Bowman (04:06):
At the internship turned into a real job, so, and from there I taught myself 3d. So I actually taught myself, you know I did take a class. It was really boring because it moved very slow and mostly I self-taught. So it was a small digital agency. At the time it was very avant garde to do the kind of work they did. We did interactive kiosks and that’s before anybody even bought anything online with credit cards, seriously, some dating myself, but, you know, it was very avant-garde and for the time and so then I got into 3d and I trained myself. And then from there I worked with a, I got a job. I was one of the first employees with square, which is a gaming company. It was on the top gaming companies. Still is actually, it just kind of evolved from there. So then I was with gaming and then from there I went into feature film and, you know, in a village

Amanda Setili (04:57):
And the films that you worked on were super cool, like Spiderman, Chronicles of Narnia Superman returns, aviator, Stuart, Little Castaway, the Matrix, I mean, amazing films. I actually remember just loving Stuart Little and watching the trailer yesterday because I loved the movie so much. And I wanted to remind now that I knew that you had worked on it, I wanted to remind myself of it. And it’s got Geena Davis whom I just love, and she treats Stewart Little as if he’s their actual son, which is to me, just hilarious. And so tell me about your role on that film and how you got to have that role and what you actually did every day in, in the making of that film.

Ginger Bowman (05:44):
Well, I will tell you, I worked on Stuart Little one and two, and one was my first film at Sony image works. And I will tell you when I went to Imageworks, I felt I had arrived. And I think in, in many ways, and I like to tell people that because it’s so true is that my time at image works, I was there almost 10 years was really formative for me. I believe it’s almost like my Alma Mater is where I really learned everything when I arrived. It, it, it actually was a big time, you know, and I was young and I was like, wow. You know, the quality bar that they had was finally the quality bar that I wanted to be, you know, in, you know, so like sitting there, we would sit in the meetings and John Dykstra, by the way, was the sec, the director of photography and Dykstra is if you look him up, he’s historic, you know, he helped invent the motion, capture camera.

Ginger Bowman (06:44):
He helped found Industrial Magic he’s major. And, you know, the feedback that he would give when we were sitting in, you know, doing the screenings was always spot on. And I mean, I was just thought it was amazing. And I, and so anyway, I was super excited. So on Stuart Little one, I was new. And then by two years later, I was a lead technical director over a team. And that’s not common at all. I bypassed a lot of people that had more experience than me and I, I know that sounds braggy. So I want to qualify that I learned to go for it. So when I got that position, I asked for it, I went to my supervisor and I said, I’d like to be in a leadership position on this next film. And so I’ve learned that if you don’t go for it, the chance of you getting it is very small. So I probably wouldn’t have had a leadership position, but I asked for it and he goes, Hmm, maybe let me think about it. And then circle back around. And lo and behold, they put me in that position. And so on, Stuart Little too, I was in charge of the Margolo team.

Amanda Setili Tell us about that character.

Ginger Bowman (08:00):
Yeah. She was the yellow feathered bird. She was kind of like the star next, you know, the digital star next to Stuart Little, the mouse. And, you know, at the time, you know, everything was new. I mean, back in the day, they hadn’t, you know, toy story hadn’t even happened. There had never been a full computer generated movie ever until Toy Story. What, by the way, so Toy Story one hadn’t even been made yet. So we were the first people to ever do feathers on the big screen, really on any screen digitally creative feathers.

Amanda Setili (08:35):
And my understanding is that once the software for feathers is created, then feathers can be in every movie. And when they created the flow of water in Finding Nemo, they were then able to just reuse that technology. So every movie adds like a technique that is incorporated into future movies. Is that how you see it?
Ginger Bowman (08:55):
They grow. I mean, the technique might change, but it’s like any other science, you know what I mean? It’s like any other thing where it’s all about learning, you know, everything that we’ve accomplished builds on what has been learned previously. That’s why as a species, we are able to know so much. If we were, we were all dumped back in the woods, we know very little, because it’s built on our people that came before us.

Amanda Setili (09:19):
Right. So how many people were on your Margelo team?

Ginger Bowman (09:25):
. Oh, there’s only like five of us

Amanda Setili (09:26):
Yeah. Well, you know, what I’ve noticed is people who are good at technical stuff don’t always want to manage. And so if somebody steps forward and says, I’d like to lead this team, and it appears that they have the people skills to lead a team, often the answer is, “yeah. Why not? Let’s try you because a lot of people aren’t good at the management side.”

Ginger Bowman (09:48):
You know? I mean, I think it’s challenging. You know, and I think that that’s one of the things that is a running theme through the majority of my career and also, you know, owning the business now is always pushing forward. Always stretching myself into things that I’m not good at and basically looking to get better. So, so capitalize on what I’m good at. Helping anyone at my company, the members on my team capitalize on their strengths and then acknowledge and keep working on the weaknesses. You know, I’m always trying to strengthen any areas that your weekend. Yeah. It was tough, you know, and, and I think, but it was challenging and I loved it. I loved what I did.

Amanda Setili (10:31):
So what do you think the secrets are? My dream is to help everyone be able to do work, that they love work, that they love so that they’re constantly learning constantly seeing new opportunities and helping their companies to see those opportunities and helping their companies to transform as the market changes. What do you think are the characteristics that you had that enabled you to, to continually transform throughout your life?

Ginger Bowman (10:59):
I probably follow my passion, you know, and, but I have to qualify that because here’s where my professor hat pops out, you know, cause I used to mentor, you know, students. Well, we all do as professors, you know, looking to get into the working world and trying to find their way and figure out a career. So I believe that there’s a sweet spot between what you love to do and what you’re good at. And if you can find that sweet spot, then that’s the zone. That’s the careers zone, not the jobs down, you know, because I saw students that loved something, but they weren’t very good at it and that’s going to be a painful career path. But then on the other hand you might be good at something, but it’s boring to you. And that’s where you’re, you know, you make money, but you’re not really satisfied. Right. You know, so you gotta find the intersection. I believe I really do.

Amanda Setili (11:55):
Well. I think there were two other characteristics that you had. One is you were willing to set a goal that you knew nothing about. You’re willing to say, that’s what I want to do. And I’m just going to figure it out. And secondly, you were courageous enough to just say, ”I want to be the leader of this team. Would that be possible? Could I do that?” And somebody said yes to you

Ginger Bowman (12:16):
Which is great. And I’ve done that over and over again. That’s an example, but many, many times I asked for what I wanted. And here’s something kind of funny. I, when I was a young woman, I used to read cosmopolitan magazine, which was probably like too mature for me, but I would read it anyway, you know, because I was like, look at the fashion pictures and try to figure out what it means to be, you know, a woman, right. So, you know, like 13 or something and there was an article in there and it said that men advanced faster in their careers because they ask what they, for what they want. And women didn’t advance as fast because they typically would work hard and wait to be noticed. Now, obviously that’s a long time ago, so times have changed. But that one thing stuck with me my whole life.

Amanda Setili (13:01):
Well, I’m glad you’ve learned it when you were 13. Cause a lot of people still don’t know it.
Ginger Bowman (13:06):
Yeah. But I believe in that, you know, if you ask for it, you gotta claim it. So sometimes you got to put the flag in the ground first and then, you know, and, and figure out how to own it second. And but I think along with that, and it’s an important point if you’re doing that, you, you, you have to believe in yourself because if you don’t think that you can, you’ve lost before you start. And the other part of that is it’s not just believing in me. I have asked for help. I have asked for knowledge constantly from the people around me. Because I don’t know. So I’m seeking those answers out from the people around me.

Amanda Setili (13:50):
Give me an example. Especially if you have an example of where you ask someone that might have intimidated you, that might’ve been somebody who was much more competent than you or higher in the organization, or somehow intimidating to you, how would you go about getting the courage and just having the conversation? What would the conversation look like?

Ginger Bowman (14:16):
You know, sometimes there’s, there’s not really a magic formula that you just kind of do it, you know? And it’s like, you know, if you jumping into a pool and a pool is cold and you just go, okay, here we go. You know, it really is that just kinda do it. And in spite of how you feel. So, and you know, it’s the same thing. For example, if you’ve, if we’ve messed up a job for a client and I need to address it and I need to go talk to that client, the feeling before I walk in that door is, oh gosh, I really don’t want to do this. You know? And you just steal yourself and you walk in and you do it. But then another part of that is sometimes just reminding yourself too, that you really don’t have anything to lose because if you get no you’re right in the same situation, if you don’t ask.

Amanda Setili (15:03):
Well, I think the other thing that people need to realize is those people who you might be intimidated by who might be in a high position, they need help. They love to have somebody walk up to them and say, “teach me., I want to learn.” I want to be more than what I am now. I, I aspire to, to great Heights because that’s the kind of go getter that can help them be successful. And they also have fears about not being successful. They need a team that can support them like that. Yeah,

Ginger Bowman (15:35):
Absolutely. I do think that, you know, before I was an employer myself, you know, I spent many years being an employee. And I was typically a valued employee because I was always pushing that, you know, I was always trying to do more, do extra. I did I was, you know, for much of my career, not all of it, but I was ambitious to, to, to advance, you know, it was like, okay, what, what’s the next step? You know, what do I need to do to get there? You know? And I was always looking and pushing not in a bad way, but like pushing myself, you know, towards, you know, something new. So you know, I think one of the things on there is be a continuous learner. I really can’t over stress the importance of that, throughout my life to be a continuous learner. Absolutely.

Amanda Setili (16:22):
It’s so important. And to learn about things that you’re really passionate about, that you’re curious about, stay curious so important. So tell me about the process of after you were a professor at SCAD for several years, you decided that you wanted to buy a business. And what was that like? What kinds of businesses did you look at? How did you evaluate them? And how did you finally make your choice of what business you wanted to find?

Ginger Bowman (16:52):
Interestingly enough, it wasn’t really a purchase of passion. It was a purchase of practicality but also looking for something that I knew that I could be interested in. So I had come to the point in my life where I wanted to have greater control of my financial future. And as a professor, I really didn’t you know, professorships very predictable, you know, and that you get your raises, you know, and it just, and I really enjoyed being a professor. I really enjoyed mentoring students, but I really also knew that there was so much more that I could offer, you know to the world, you know, just other skills and abilities that were not being utilized. And I wanted to control my financial future. So my now husband then boyfriend at the time said, well, why don’t you buy a business? And honestly, people like them because I was like, I don’t know anything about money in a business.

Ginger Bowman (17:45):
I said, I’ve never owned a business before. And he said, well, you can learn on the job, learn you learn by doing. I said, I still have not, I haven’t gone to business school I guess, but you learn by doing, I said, you’ll learn more by doing than you’ll ever learn in business school. And of course that spoke right to my experience in the past. So I was like, okay, well, and then it goes, plus I own a business. He was a business owner because, and I’ll help you. And I said, well together, we could probably do this. And so I started looking for businesses to buy. So my criteria at the time was a business that had some creative component because I’m a creative and if there’s not a creative component, I’m just not going to be happy. So I had a, some creative component, it needed to be small enough that I could felt that I could manage a business, manage it, and then it needed to, but it needed to be large enough so that it had a revenue base that I felt could achieve my financial dreams.

Ginger Bowman (18:37):
And that was pretty much the criteria. So we just started looking, I looked at I looked at clothing stores, initially boutique stores because I, you know, I was very interested. I said, oh, you know, we can pick it up. It’s kind of got a creative side. And I found very quickly that boutiques don’t make much money, you know, and they really struggle. So I said, maybe let’s look at a different kind of business. And so then we started looking at signage. I looked at some signage businesses. Signage is very, you know, strong in the print industry. And I looked at commercial printing because upward revenue, potential upper revenue of a commercial printing is actually fairly extensive. And the other thing about the commercial printing is that it also had a graphic design side. The one that I bought, and my plan was always to take this commercial printing and move it into more modern era. Like I was planning. It was even in my business plan, I plan to change it, you know, keeping it commercial printing, but integrating it into digital marketing more to make it more pertinent. So I just had that idea. And then when we got in it, you know, then,

Amanda Setili (19:40):
So tell me some of the either surprises or concerns that you had once you actually bought the business and started running it. What did you learn about it that was concerned?

Ginger Bowman (19:53):
Well, it was way, way, way harder than I ever imagined. What was hard about it owning this business? And I will tell you, it was made much more challenging than it needed to be. I have, I have some friends, you know, in addition to my husband, I have some friends that are business owners. Again, that’s part of why I was inspired because I’m surrounded by other people that have owned and operated their businesses. You know, and this friend of mine who’s phenomenally successful businessman. He was like, I’m so sorry. You know, this has been really tough for you and it’s your first foray, but one of the things is being, being a inexperienced business person, I’ve purchased that business. That was very top heavy and clients of three clients made up 70% of the revenue and all three clients were in jeopardy.

Ginger Bowman (20:42):
They were in jeopardy when I bought the business and I didn’t, I mean, like they, they, without me knowing like two of the three were insourcing their printing unbeknownst to me, of course, and the third was bought by another large entity that then structurally changed it. And they moved a lot of their printing from local printers to big box printers. So all three were in jeopardy. And so I lost 40% of the business in the first six months from those three. And I, but I also want to say, we didn’t do anything wrong. Like they, they, they weren’t unhappy with the product. It was just one of those things.

Amanda Setili – So where did you go from there?

Ginger Bowman (21:22):

Ginger Bowman (21:23):
That’s why, honestly, when COVID happened and everybody’s like, oh my God, COVID so many businesses lost revenue. And they’re like, oh, we have to pivot by the time COVID happened. I was like, oh, it’s again, you know, they had already made it through a major loss and I mean, the revenue plummeted and I would watch revenue and I would sit and, and I’m a thinker, I’m a thinker. And I would think and think, and think, and think, and I’d be like, there is a way out. I just need to find it just like when I was young. And I said, I want to do that. I just need to figure out how I, I truly believe that there was a path out of this for me, I just needed to make the right moves. So I tried to be very careful with every decision I made, but I made decisions and we may, and we pushed, we did things that were risky. But they were calculated risks. So I took a number of risks because I thought I had to, and I do believe I have to, if I hadn’t changed the business, the business that I bought would be w wouldn’t be, I wouldn’t be here

Amanda Setili (22:25):
About the risks that you took. And were there any that didn’t pay off, did they all pay off? How did you, how did you kind of think about those risks and what were the alternatives that you considered that you were

Ginger Bowman (22:38):
I think I’m fortunate that most of the risk paid off, but not all, but most of them debt. And I feel very blessed in that and I also feel very happy about it. But it, it was scary. You know, I’m very scared because every time it is a risk, I mean, that’s the whole thing of a risk is, is not, there’s no guarantee, you know? So every time you do that, so one of the things that we did is I rebranded. So that was a risk. Okay. Because the company I bought was called south print and I said, okay, we need to broaden our services because I was looking for more revenue streams. And so, and it was always a plan, but, you know, no one could get past the name sound print. So when they were at south bend, they were like, well, you’re a printer.

Ginger Bowman (23:17):
So I was like, okay, I got to change the name, but I was afraid because I was like, okay, south pram is very old school. I mean, I totally transformed this business. This is night and day from what it was when I purchased it. It was very traditional. It was old school, you know, very stable. It’s a very different brand persona. So I knew going from self print to synergetic media was going to be very different for the clients. And I was worried that I would lose some of my precious client base that I couldn’t afford to lose. And we really didn’t. So that, that didn’t happen. So, but so, but I had to rebrand, we added services, we talked about my film background. So I thought, now this is funny because we always seemed to make the right choice. But I was like, well, this will be brilliant.

Ginger Bowman (24:04):
I’m going to add video. Of course, you know, I have all this film experience. So of course I’m going to add video and it’s going to, it’s going to work. So we added video and nobody got it. Nobody understood it. It was like, what are you? Are you a print company or a video company? Nobody got it. So people would even suggest, well, why don’t you give up, drop the video? And I said, absolutely not. I’m not dropping the video. Video is in my blood too. Storytelling is in my blood. And with my experience, there is no way that I can’t be successful. I just have to figure out how

Ginger Bowman (24:39):
Well plus that there’s so many ways for small companies that you might’ve served to use video too. I mean, gosh, there’s lots of ways to use video on your website, on YouTube to draw people to your website, to explain your products. I mean, they just were, they just didn’t realize the opportunity,

Ginger Bowman (25:01):
Right. So it wasn’t coming across. So I wasn’t going to, it goes again, you’ll see over and over again, I wasn’t going to let go of the dream. I just had to figure out how to do it properly. And, and some people would suggest, well, maybe you want to drop it. I’m like, no, I, with my background, no way, you know, I just have to figure out how, you know. And so I just kept at it, you know? And so I realized that, that my, my messaging, my brand wasn’t communicating properly. And so I had to take a step back and then I gave it more thought, okay, which direction do I want to go? How do I want to make it clear that things are all tied together because people weren’t getting it. And so I thought of different things that are rejected. And I ended up with, you know, the reality is we’re we want to move into marketing. We don’t want to, we don’t want to eliminate services. We need to add services. And so that’s when we added websites and it was literally the missing piece to the puzzle. And once we had the proper lineup of services and we, and we said, listen, we just, we needed to not be a print and video company. Nobody’s getting that. It’s ridiculous. You know, people are,

Ginger Bowman (26:15):
I see what you mean. Yeah. If you only have those two, then I can see why people can’t make the leap.

Ginger Bowman (26:22):
Yeah. Right. Nobody can make the leap. And so, and I added video first because it was my area of expertise, you know what I’m saying? So, but I had to realize that it wasn’t working. And so then I said, well, we’re a marketing company. The, the, the solution is not to eliminate services as listeners to add it, because what kind of company can legitimately practically do anything under the sun? And if you look, there’s a of marketing companies out there and they may have different service lineups, but everybody understands that, you know, as I said, we’re a marketing company. I never had a single question.

Amanda Setili (26:54):
Now it seems so simple. But the time it probably was not so obvious.

Ginger Bowman (26:59):
Right. You know? And so I think that, you know, what, you know, for me, the takeaway is don’t, don’t stop evolving, you know keep evolving and assess what you’re doing and change as needed,

Amanda Setili (27:14):
Just so people can understand who are listening. Can you give a couple examples of the videos that you have created that were effective for your clients? Yeah.

Ginger Bowman (27:22):
Yeah. And I love making videos, obviously. You know what I mean? When my background, I love telling stories. And so some of our, some of our videos that I think are more notable is we did a and really relies on the strength. So I do try to pull in the strengths, but then myself and my staff, and we’ve done some, I think really interesting explainer videos that combine video videography, like studio shoots of actors and actresses with motion graphics or animation. So we’ve, and we’ve also done some that are all explainer video. So an animated, animated, explainer videos, and then we’ve done some that are all videography that I really, really pulled in my feature film experience. And those projects obviously take quite a bit of my effort because I bring everything to the table on them. And I bring in that storytelling. So even if we’re doing a testimonial for a customer, we try to tell a story, you know, much like a movie tells a story, but much, much shorter.

Amanda Setili (28:31):
That’s great. Do it, people come to synergetic, media.com. Can they see in your portfolio, some of the video examples?

Ginger Bowman (28:38):
Yeah. We have a video gallery so they can go there. Good.

Amanda Setili (28:42):
The one other thing I wanted to make sure that we touch on before we wrap up is how you manage people. So you’re obviously a very growth mindset oriented person, always thinking, always looking for new ways to do things very creative. How do you hire the right people that fit with your mindset and how do you keep them motivated and engaged even when you go through a tough time?

Ginger Bowman (29:11):
I think that’s a great question because it’s something that I thought about from the very beginning with the businesses, the team, you know, and my husband is a Little more practical. He’s more of a nuts and bolts kind of thing. And he used to tell me, I was a Little bit too worried about the relationships. And I don’t know if it’s because I’m a woman or it’s just who I am, but I you know, I think about the relationships, but more than that, it has to do with the vision of the company. So I think, you know, all the things that they tell you that you’re supposed to for your business, you’re supposed to have mission statements and visions and values. You know, I found that to be very, very, very true, and people can’t believe in the vision of the company unless the company has one and I’ve really worked actively to communicate that vision to the team and let them know that they’re a part of it. Because I want us all to feel that we are a part of something more important than just what we’re doing and also that they can grow with the company. So I try to make sure that opportunities are presented for growth for the employees to grow with me. I have one of my employees who said, and he’s like in his fifties, that this is the first time in a long time that he feels like he has a career and not just,

Ginger Bowman (30:34):
That’s fabulous. That’s absolutely fabulous that doesn’t, that make you feel great.

Ginger Bowman (30:39):
Amazing. You know, and he said he had almost given up on it. That’s what

Ginger Bowman (30:43):
Wonderful, especially for someone in that age category, because they’ve experienced a lot of other things. And they finally found somewhere where they feel like they can really grow and contribute.

Amanda Setili – That’s really fantastic. So I want to wrap up, but is there anything that you want to tell our audience in terms of how they might reach out to synergetic media and what kinds of services you would like to provide to them?

Ginger Bowman (31:09):
They can always reach out by as most people do go to the website there’s readings@synergeticmedia.com. Of course, anyone’s free to email me directly@gingerdotbowmanatsynergeticmedia.com. We have a contact form pick up the phone any, any way they want to reach us. But yeah, so that’s pretty much, and our service line up is as we’re a printing and marketing company, we really are a hybrid. We do our printing in house, but our clients typically don’t come to us just for print in the marketing side. They come to us for marketing and end up doing their printing with us.

Amanda Setili (31:50):
Well, thank you so much for being my guests today, ginger, it was really interesting to learn about your background and going from being a server to be a Oscar winning technical director, to being a professor, to be running a business and making the transformation over the last few years and surviving the pandemic with flying colors and being a great boss. Thanks so much.

Ginger Bowman (32:13):
Well, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure. All

Amanda Setili (32:16):
Right. Bye-Bye bye-bye Thank you for listening to fearless growth. You can find out more about the show at [inaudible] dot com slash podcast, and you can listen on apple podcasts and Spotify. If you like what you’ve heard, please take a moment to write a review and give us a star rating reviews matter so much in helping others find us. Thanks for your support.
Amanda Setili (32:49):
[Inaudible].